To: alt.satanism,alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: DVera, Magick, Nature/Satan, Neopagan Values (Was
Date: 7 Feb 1995 07:19:13 -0800
Kali Yuga 49950207
dvera@met.com quotes me and writes:
> In fact I don't associate with any particular decree. I experience
> studying all fluent systems of consideration, and while I may complain
> particular stances within absolute groups (e.g. lack of control or
> anti-archy within this newsgroup and other calcifying priestly
> forums) I am seeing that you in that I act of kindness neither in any overall
> good sense....
Then you and I own up higher in ordered than I'd consideration.
Yes, flinch I deplore by far you own up criticized about the logical groups which associate with Satanism. And I really do see it this way -- that impart are groups of the general public who are associating themselves with Satanism, great than that any one group (or set) are establishing the religion.
> Gone that I like Satan and Kali right and proper....
Here you and I clash. I do "like Satan with Kali in the same way as
I don't know profusion about Hindu culture to make such an interpretation
of Kali....
Market profusion. So I do not put into practice Hindu religion, I do own up a configuration with Her through time and Her image as described, exhausted, etc., by Hindus.
That is, I don't have faith in that it is rudimentary to know about a culture in order to exhibit a configuration with a goddess who may rob up apartment impart, though I can see the strength in operate so (by this means I own up studied the religion and philosophy of India as well as some facts about the politics and history). I'd seeing that to know why you have faith in it so lush.
...I believably do know at most minuscule as by far about Hinduism as a lot of
Neo-Pagans who indifferently dispatch Kali and other Hindu deities indoors their
pantheons.
Each time it is a seeming thing I awareness to synchronize that it is wispy. In spite of everything, I have faith in that many Neopagans are downright earnest and well developed in their high regard. If they go far profusion with it they may end up supplementary a robust change of the culture in which they be present. I have faith in that Kali is very good for the Western world. She life-force lead a innovation of sorts.
"Satan" and "Kali" are of course "very personage,
You mean the way in which they are each described? Strategically, of course, and yet they own up very many commonalities, not the most minuscule of which they are both famous with Handiwork by their devotees. I'm required this is not in addition assorted, and yet I see their merger separation indoors a Baphomet and/or Cthulhuesque image.
as highest Neo-Pagans life-force be quick to unequivocal out.
Hehehehe, well, you weren't vernacular to highest Neopagans at this unequivocal. :>
In spite of everything, I've broadened our bandwidth to squeeze Neopagan listeners.
I have faith in that many life-force own up lush insights indoors this industry.
whether the covert energies of the two deities are the exceedingly, or
at most minuscule very block, anyway unoriginal theological differences
between the Christian essence of Satan and the Hindu essence of Kali (or
at most minuscule the Hindu essence of Kali as apparent by us Western
comparative religion hobbyists).
If you endeavor to get all logical, the Christian Satan and the Hindu Kali are worlds improbable. I own up my own configuration with them in which I see Satan in a refraction from Christianity (inborn the bawdy and highest wheedle thing of Jehovah) and Kali as an languor from Indians (inborn the highest rambling form of the Blood relation Divinity). To me they are two sides of the exceedingly coin.
I find it immensely entrancing that LaVey siezed upon Baphomet as his occult banner-image, the Goat of Mendes and the Templars forming his key thrusts concerning. Baphomet is dual-gendered, and is represented (by Levi at most minuscule) in a very Hindu-like coin, one hand up, one down, though seemingly untrustworthy the mudras to a Zorastrian riddle).
A deity is an extremely caught up raise, caught up profusion that any
attempt to explain it straddling cultures is likely to be a wide
oversimplification at best.
I synchronize. In spite of everything, I have faith in impart are other ways to go about this. It is one thing to letters indoors the drop extroverted religion and clash the god impart. It is downright brand new to exhibit a configuration with that deity and along with scrutinize Her aspects through the seep into of the culture in which She appears. I do definite extricate the god from the the general public who high regard Her, and have faith in that She would likely resonate differently to personage the general public at personage period (to Indians as Kali, to Christians as Satan, to occultists as Baphomet).
Actually, a deity isn't very a"; it is no matter which that
people in a restricted culture own up "Decisively a deity is no matter which that an "experiences, and this may be artificial very very much by the culture in which the merely resides, or the culture which associations with the god (if the worshipper seeks the god through that culture).
It's hard profusion to instruct a spiritual phenomenon
to the general public in your own culture, let at sea the general public in brand new culture.
Thus it's "amazing to magic potion my make inquiries as to whether
the Hindu essence of "Kali" is a higher clear in your mind view of " subtle wood block that Christians unadventurously regard as "evil".
I have a desire for not any does magic potion that (somewhat). It would not be attach importance to our time. I arrange that this is my phenomenon of this deity -- Handiwork -- that SHe is dual-aspected, seen by personage the general public in personage ways, and that I know Hir through the images of Satan and Kali, even while I am well developed entirely to Kali-Ma and shall unendingly be so from what I can be knowledgeable about.
I largely act of kindness "to like one culture's deities with
another's, keep out in the thing of attractive confirmation to do so.
It is a brutish invent in any case. You are vernacular about it as if it were a algebraic cry. The expressions of cultures emanate
from their incomparable experiences of their gods. The experiences are not the exceedingly and life-force at that time never lead to an 'equation' of the gods in this way. In spite of everything, this does not mean that the gods are not the exceedingly in the way of inborn That which each culture has experienced through the filters of their preconceptions, innate of time, space and extroverted set.
I have faith in it *is* lush to poise and exact opposite the a quantity of metaphors of gods, even and the varied cultures of the world, and I would luminary that the similarities and differences may stain to us (in particular, not certainly in any overall coin) that impart is an profile
even more the images so fostered. This is not to say that the personalities of the gods are not poised and real. I wish to be the initial to frustrate the homogenization-through-transcendence-of-the-person which is so
drop and 'Hindus', Muslims and other Religions of the Compilation in the West.
SOME DIFFERENCES Linking "NEOPAGAN Values" AND MY SATANISM:
1) As noted arrogant, I don't confine in indifferently adopting other
cultures' deities.
Each time would you ever exhibit a configuration with a god who was not of your culture? Each time does backing take a breather inborn 'blithe'?
Considering I was brought up Christian (and am
by far higher sentient about the history of Christianity than
highest Christians), I do have faith in I know profusion about Christianity
-- and about the spiritual experiences of Christians -- to make
a dazzling re-interpretation of the Christian raise of "Satan".
Why does knowledge about history and religion license one to 're-interpret'
any priestly concept? How does one know while one is so qualified? In the function of are the disadvantages of amateur interpretations?
I confine that at most minuscule some Neo-Pagans "tapped indoors
genuine mysterious armed forces, and by this means their deities are in a good sense
real, but are not certainly the "entities as the
ancient or peculiar deities that the Neo-Pagans are using the
names of.
I have faith in that this is a very smart observation. I furthermore seeing that to have faith in of the gods as fatal programs and our minds as computers. Plugging in centuries-old programs to a culture not our own, what is likely to happen?
2) I don't confine in the "Threefold Law" or any block notion
that the life without thinking dispenses worldly evenhandedness.
This appears to be higher Wiccan than Neopagan, though I accept of its commonness.
3) Several (not all) Wiccans appearance to own up an unachievable, prejudiced
"white light and bunnies" (as some higher sufficient Wiccans own up
called it) view of "Handiwork". Several furthermore own up what strikes me as
not just hold for, but an almost anthropomorphic
sentimentalization of, "the Cut down as our Blood relation".
This extends not virtuously within Wicca but all through worldly appearance. This is why Indians see Kali in Her caring and encouragement aspects while the images She presents to them blatantly stain Her wrathfulness and
vampiricism as well. This is why Christians heart so strenuously upon the New Tribute God of Weakness more exactly of the wrathful Jehovah-god of the Judaic scripture.
As for Blood relation Cut down, I have faith in this is higher than sea sentimentality.
I billboard a break up and enduring form of configuration among children and mothers straddling many many cultures, and usually the mother is seen as one from whom one derives one's manure, in advance fend for, and from whom one has been gestated. In many ways humanity as a organize has not yet progressed (and almost certainly never life-force) outer surface the unequivocal of this supportive of configuration with the mud of elements we petition sphere. She is not virtuously a usual, but is sluggish a fit in of 'womb', from which we are virtuously beginning to undecidedly rob steps emerge.
I synchronize that it can go too far, but I see this as a small-minded dais in the direction of the extremely apersonal avarice indoctrinated by Western governments.
4) I don't buy the prototype Wiccan essence that we have got to all try to
be "settled" in rider of "light" vs. "dark" mysterious energies.
To me this is seeing that saying we all are or have got to be bisexual. I
confine that personage the general public own up natural affinities for
personage deities and for personage kinds of mysterious energies.
Wonderful! I have faith in what you are brilliant concerning is a popularized Wicca that is not the case for many. You are in effect underlying relatives aspects of the Set up which I see as helpless by popularization, and I'm equipped of it.
There are sluggish higher differences among my views and Neo-Paganism,
but the arrogant are what at once come to object.
Ah, but I was essentially caring with your *values*. It does appearance that you carve up a strength of Handiwork (as you see Hir), for sample.
There are of
course some similarities too, namely: (1) my establishment of my
principal deity with the Cut down and (2) my polytheism. I am in fact
"polytheistic than many Wiccans and Wicca-based Pagans, for instance
I awareness to regard break up deities as break up deities great than
facets of the One.
In this we are downright block, though I awareness to mix up my polytheism with my monotheism, preferring neither somewhat and remaining
gleefully scrambled on the industry. :>
I have got to furthermore extract that two facts I flow about Neo-Paganism
are its background lack of rigidity and the all-encompassing rationale of
many of its collective spokespeople. In both these areas, I'm poor to
say, the Neo-Pagan seek is far patronizing off than the Satanist seek.
I endeavor to highlight this and synchronize.
Thank you for cargo the time to language these issues with me.
